Bulgarian -isms
Maybe it's the wine speaking, BUT I think it's pretty damn weird that in Bulgaria people are completely OK with this:
but totally opposed to this:
Bulgaria is a civilized country. A member of the EU. A co-signer of all kinds of human rights treaties. Has an extremely high education rate. AND its people are in complete denial about the rampant -isms* that plague us. I've got a pretty high tolerence for all kinds of sins and sinners, but ignorence and stupidity are not some of them.
Please excuse me for throwing up in my mouth a little bit.
---
* Racisim, sexism, homophobia (not technically an -ism, OK).
Photos via: Capital and Edno Managazine
but totally opposed to this:
Bulgaria is a civilized country. A member of the EU. A co-signer of all kinds of human rights treaties. Has an extremely high education rate. AND its people are in complete denial about the rampant -isms* that plague us. I've got a pretty high tolerence for all kinds of sins and sinners, but ignorence and stupidity are not some of them.
Please excuse me for throwing up in my mouth a little bit.
---
* Racisim, sexism, homophobia (not technically an -ism, OK).
Photos via: Capital and Edno Managazine
Labels: drunk or what, not-so-good things, politics
posted by petya at 11/27/2007 10:00:00 PM
86 Comments:
Hehe, unless this first removed post was spam, I can imagine what it was.
Freedom of expression is above all. And really, the shoulders and torsos displayed on the Azis poster are aesthetically superior to that crotch and boobs we are forced to observe in intimate detail.
Елате ме изяжте сега!
Unfortunately, you are very much right. Sexism, homophobia and racism, plus discrimination of those who are different in any respect (ethnic, religious, physical) and the problem is, nobody even notices that. It wasn't always like that - see the case of the Bulgarian Jews during WWII - but can we actually claim that case as a red point of our own?
But the greatest enigma for me is what exactly contributes to the low levels of tolerance in Bulgaria. Can't be ignorance, can't be pride... I suspect it is low self esteem and a constant fear of being put down. A national pride built around one and only national ideal and nurtured through the degrading of everything different for the fear it will dissolve the unity...
Yana:
Yes! But also, even if you didn't like the billboard...that's not a reason not to allow it, right. I don't mind people saying they hate it, that's their opinion. I just don't understand why that would lead them to believe it is OK to take it down?!
Iva:
The source of the -isms is what confuses me the most. I think I agree with your explanation that historical circumstances have continually tolerated one set of beliefs over another. It just seems counter-intuitive to me that years of political oppression would make people racist and homophobic. If anything, I would think that it would make people more open to diversity as they know how much it sucks to be oppressed.
What I find even more upsetting than the various -isms that people subscribe to is the fact that when their mayor acts according to the prejudices of his own -isms he is celebrated as a model of autocratic efficiency. Whatever you think of the ads in question, if you love in Sofia you should be angry with Бойко!
I don't know how many people called before BB took it down, but here is my theory:
I think BB was all too ready to do it, because he is an impotent mayor always on the lookout to show off. So when he took it down, he turned the situation into a moment of perceived agency for the residents of Sofia. Since they usually feel they have no control over what happens to their city, this one only occasion in which something they approve of happened generated such an unanimously negative response.
I don't feel capable to analyze where homophobia and double standards come from. I just know the average Bulgarian does not like to be challenged to step in other people's shoes.
Elena - sounds like a research question to me!
Err, eleiva, rather. My brain goes to autopilot sometimes. But that sounds like a very interesting sociology dissertation right there.
Jenn, no problem, in fact, Elena I am :) Yes, I would love to read a dissertation on that topic and am good at formulating other people's dissertation topics based on what I would be interested to read...
Petya, sadly people counterintuitively learn bad habits when they are oppressed...
Kgrady and Yana, you hit the nail: Sofia's mayor actually provides an alluring strong masculine figure a crowd would love to rally around. I don't see no contradiction in him tearing down those ads. He is doing it because his leadership masculinity is threatened.
;)
This is such a good comparison between the 2 posters. Cool :))
However I am not sure I agree with the point I think you make..
We should not be OK with both posters, and I highly regard the decision to remove the second one.
This poster is a marketing tool for buying an interest in a new project. It is shocking and grabs attention and people talk about it. Point.
This poster has zero value to me, to the society, or to anyone else besides the sponsor of the project.
It conveys no message for tolerance, understanding, or moral principles and does not in any way defend the rights of gays.
Freedom of expression? excuse me... what exactly does it express?
It just calls your basic instincts.. be it hate, shock, curiosity or whatever else..
If anything this poster can only skew dramatically the whole conception of what it is to be gay.. i guess...
Freedom of expression is nothing more than freedom of expression. It guarantees that you can moo in public, recite Hristo Botev or Mandelshtam poems or curse the government or hang such posters as you like without suffering any sort of administrative or other ban. Of course porn has no place on the streets, but this image is not porn.
You might not like it, you might think it's stupid or provocative but that does not mean it has to be taken down.
This is an advertisement for a TV channel! It was NEVER meant to convey "a message for tolerance, understanding, or moral principles" nor was it meant to "defend the rights of gays."
Nicki, understand that it's the double standard that people here are upset about, not the fact that they will not see Azis kiss some other guy as they walk down the street. It's the hypocrisy, the phony morality that nauseates me.
And one more thing. If everything that we see in public has the sole aim to remind us of moral principles, this would not be Bulgaria. It would be Saudi Arabia where everyday life is subject to all sorts of decency rules.
that makes sense indeed :)
i agree with the phony morality, double standards and everything else.. I indeed like the comparison of the 2 posters - they are exactly the same thing.
If you criticize one, you should definitely criticize the other as well.
but it still does not make sense to me why I should be happy with being flooded with tons of non-sense - yes, it is my choice whether to accept it or not, but I cannot choose not to be influenced by it, no one can!
so, in my opinion you should always be free to express your opinion, but not free to impose your opinion on everyone.
If you want to impose something on me, there should be criteria of what is acceptable and what not.
So, Nicki, a poster imposes an opinion? Is that what you mean?
Yana, I definitely think that these posters influence me as well as everyone else. Just as many other kind of advertising, it is being imposed on you - the issue is what kind of advertising is acceptable, and what not.
By the way on a second thought I would actually disagree that the 2 posters are the same category and should be judged the same way. The equivalent of the girl poster would be a handsome naked man taking a posture that invites for sex. And we have seen a few of those, and they have NEVER been taken down.
The gay poster is much more than this - it has the connotation of man having sex with another man, and yes I think it is being imposed on me.
I am fine to watch a movie like brokeback mountain and watch gay love - I can choose whether and how I want to perceive the movie, to value it, or to empathise with what I see.
I am definitely not fine if I HAVE to look at gay men kissing everyday all over the town.
And will likely vote against the FLIRT vodka poster as well (while at the same time I find it appealing), even though I do NOT think anymore that these 2 posters should be considered "of the same kind".
Now you can use me as the perfect example of all -isms in Bulgaria I guess...
I am sitting here, listening in. I am very happy that you guys are keeping this conversation going.
Nicki, I think that the way you feel is not unusual: I don't mind if people are doing it, BUT I don't want it pushed in my face. However, what that says to me is that you actually DO mind it.
What I don't understand is...well...why? First off, heterosexual people flaunt their sexuality ALL THE TIME. The Flirt ad is a good example of that. But also, we are constantly bombarded with images of all kinds of things we don't approve of. I don't think that people like Boyko should be authorized to decide which ones are acceptable and which are not...
Nicki, that's just a double standard. Straight sexuality is ALL OVER THE PLACE, you see it every day, everywhere, it influences you to look, talk about it and buy things. But you don't perceive it as something imposed on you.
But one single poster of two men kissing is all of a sudden a problem.
Bottom line for me is if a posters of straight couples kissing etc stay up, posters of gay men or women kissing also stay up. They are the same thing: sexuality.
nicki, given your definition of what constitutes "imposing" opinions on you, it seems that you have left yourself no other options save remaining in a locked room with yourself. however, if you're not interested in that and would like to continue the conversation...
first, i'm not sure what the difference is between the "suggestion" of homosexual sex in the poster (to which you object) and the "actual" portrayal of homosexual sex in the film "Brokeback Mountain" (to which you do not oject). is it because the latter also includes what you perceive as "love"?
second, where do you think your values concerning sexuality came from? certainly from your parents, your church and your school... but also (as you admit) from the "influence" of advertisements, films, strangers kissing on the street and, no doubt, authorities like your mayor. given the fact that all of these "influences" are influencing you in the same way with the same values, is it impossible to imagine that a different set of influences might allow you to form and appreciate a different set of values concerning which expressions of sexuality are tolerable?
finally, it seems to me that someone as convicted by her values as you seem to be would appreciate the opportunity to exercise your good judgment. advocates of censorship inadvertantly reveal a lack of conviction... and i suspect that the reason they don't want their values challenged and their judgments tested is because they are not as strong in their convictions as their rhetoric suggests.
that's my $0.02.
ok girls :)) you are really convincing, i can agree with most of you say, but still..
If I break down my position in 2 it would something like:
1) homosexuality - I find reinforcing the heterosexual behavior by showing kissing heterosexual couples good (more good and bad later). I find reinforcing gay/lesbian behavior by showing kissing men/women couples not good. I am being honest, that's how I feel, and I know it is a shaky argument...
I find one good and the other bad, because I think that in the long term (centuries ahead) heterosexuality is more likely to help in building lasting and emotionally bound relationships that lead to bearing and raising a child (ok.. you will kill me now :)))
If I think of sexuality as a way of bringing pleasure, love and warmth than I can really find no distinction in heterosexual and homosexual couples - you cannot say that one is more normal or good.
Again, I really do not mind having 2 gay men kissing on the street next to me. And i will not mind having 2 gay people kissing all the time on a party more than I would if a man and a woman do this. I do not agree with reinforcing this behavior though.
2) Imposing influence.
I think that advertisements or any other type kind of statements that you HAVE to notice should NOT make you feel uneasy or make unappealing statements, without really bringing any meaning to you (it's a stupid product seducement in the end!?!)
And this Azis piece makes me feel uneasy...
At the same time, the FLIRT girl is really pleasing to me.. but probably there is a bunch of girls who feel somewhat uneasy looking at this naked woman, legs wide spread, making me think only of sex when I see her.
So should we keep this add up.. don't know really, but I will likely vote no.
and.. how come this is a good thing to sell your vodka with an image of a sexy woman and why should we tolerate this... hell I do not know. Other than economic sense to the vodka producer it makes no sense to me.
this was a long post :((
Doctor_J, you make all good points..
but should I show on a commercial of a kid shooting another kid in the head???
is it not more the case that we have to have censhorship and guidance, but are probably arguing for the extent of it..
Nicki, you are very honest and that's great, cause it makes for a good discussion. Thanks.
I don't buy into the "but straight people raise children better" argument. The world is overpopulated anyway. :)
nicki: i don't know about the women, but i can assure you that i have no intention of killing you. promise.
actually, i think it's really great that you're willing to speak so honestly and openly, knowing that basically everyone else disagrees with a big part of what you're saying. conversations about this sort of thing (whatever that means) usually tend to end up as either really combative, or really un-interestingly full of agreement. either way, the real issues are not really reached.
and i think it's great that you're willing to see the good qualities of homosexual relationships even though you are not entirely comfortable with them. but look, it's not like we (as a society) have to choose between reproductive heterosexuality and a childless, homosexual future. gay people don't hate kids, and they don't want to make you gay.
both of those ads are hideous, by the way.
nicki, of course you should object to a commercial of a kid shooting another kid. you should object on the basis of your values (presumably, a respect for the snctity of human life) in the same way that you are objecting to the TV2 ad. the differece, as i see it, is that you could legitimately question the "right" of someone to promote his or her product by advocating child-on-child violence because (statistics show, anyway) such images actually contribute to the perpetration of *actual* violence, which is (of course) *actually* dangerous to people. although, correspondingly, the perpetration of images of homosexuality might actually contribute to the "spread" of homosexuality (which, on the contrary, is NOT proven by statistics), you cannot object to this on the same grounds, as you (or anyone else) has yet to make the argument that homosexuality *actually* harms anyone.
re: the "sexuality-os-for-procreation" point... i'm sure i'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but homosexuality has been around about as long as human beings have. so, homosexuality is no threat to the survival of the human race. furhter, if the prima facie objective of human sexuality is the production of children, then you ought to start objecting to unmarried, infertile, or otherwise disinclined-to-reproduce heterosexuals kissing in the street as well.
now, that's a LOT of objecting your taking on. are you ready for all that?
ps- i also appreciate your honesty.
Also, pace Kyle, I don't think either of the ads are "hideous" per se.
leigh: you haven't seen them up close ;)
apologies for the string of posts here, but i want to clarify why i don't think the ads are "hideous." i don't, in principle, object to selling products of pleasure (vodka or TV) by utilizing the association with other pleasures (sex). or, at the very least, i see the logic behind it, and it seems to me to be a logic inherent to market capitalism, so i don't object to it *outside* of my normal "good liberal" objections to market capitalism.
i do, however, agree with petya's point in the original post, which was that we shouldn't object to one of the ads without objecting to the other. that is, given the reaity of market capitalism's founding principle ('sex sells'), we should be able to distinguish what it is about our objections to the exercise of that principle that is really at work. the fact that bulgarians (and not only bulgarians, i am obligated to note) object to the second ad and not the first is indicative of just the sort of prejudice that petya is calling attention to... not indicative of some general objection to the utilization of sex for commercial purposes.
if one wants to question the "sex sells" principle, that would be a whole other conversation (which I would be happy to participate in as well)... but i think that redirecting THIS conversation toward THAT objection is missing petya's (very astute) point.
Just to fuel the fire, but I for one do not think Nicki is being truly honest. And the best part is that most ladies here probably do not sense it. There is a startling lack of orthogonality when it comes to how guys perceive displays of homosexuality. This little video illustrates my point better than I ever could. And as far as I am concerned this is not fiction - I do not know of _any_ male (including myself) who would not react identically to the two slackers above. Of course there are exceptions to any rule, yet I somehow doubt it :)
:) Bulgarians need to be challenged more. Show them gay people kissing, not any, but famous ones like his highness Azis himself; show them a beautiful bulgarian girl kissing ...
a Turkish guy, a Roma guy, an Afro-European guy or all of them at the same time, write Rakia corrects people under it and place the ad next to the parliament! Bang, let hysteria rule :)))!
Maybe I'm misdirecting a little the discussion but I just want to say that I absolutely agree with nicki on the point of the aggression of the ads. They agressive and yes, they are imposing their aggression on the citizen who has no other choice than viewing them. I think, however, that their aggression is aesthetic. And I'im aesthetically injured when viewing them. They are hideous indeed and they expose their hideousity publicly. I'm seriously worried about the public taste that's being cultivated. Let me put it this way: all of us pee but normally we don't do it in public. To be clear: I'm not saying that sex can not be presented aesthetically, I'm just saying that the way these ads are presenting it is for me aesthetically unacceptable.
my problem with these specific ads and most of the street billboard ads in bulgaria is that they are ugly, pointless and useless. They are perfect illustration for the "Advertising makes us buy things we don't need with money we don't have, to impreess people we don't like". And this problem shoudl be resolved by removing not only these two ads but all ads from sofia.
Sorry for not having an opinion on bulgarian -isms topic :)
hehe :)) let's also not turn this conversation into a discussion of how honest I am ;)
I feel uneasy when watching erotic gay clips, and I feel quite comfortable when watching lesbian erotic clips - that's a fact and it seems to be normal for a heterosexual man.
I am also fine if two men are kissing on the street, this does not disturb me emotionally even though I find it strange.
However my feelings have nothing to do with what's "right" and what's "wrong" or what is "good" and "bad".
I think there is no single evidence that can prove that heterosexual love is in any way inferior or superior to homosexual.
I also think that while we are naturally predisposed to be heterosexual, the majority of us have a socially-determined sexuality and not genetically-determined one, i.e. I could hypothetically feel equally good when loving and having sex with a man when this is reinforced as a "good" thing by society.
My objection though is that it should not be re-inforced and promoted and I explained why. I might not be right, and I have no scientific or statistical evidence to prove it.
i can explain in much more details the reasons for my objection, but it's difficult to do it in a blog format.
I am fine to accept though the fact that a man could for some reason - genetic, social, psychological, whatever - feel the same warmth, love and sexual desire towards a man that I could feel towards a woman.
So that's it about my viewpoint regarding sexuality.
On censorship - I do not think that as a citizen and based on my values I should be the one who objects to a commercial displaying shooting kids.
There should be a social and legislative authority (not the mayor, not me, not the president..) that puts moral limits on what you can impose to people and what not.
You cannot allow every wealthy person to challenge your values in a manipulative way WITH ANYTHING he feels like using against you just because he can spread his posters around town.
If you are posting in a blog, writing a poem, creating a movie etc. you can express anything you want, it's your right and privilege.
But please do not flood me with it when I do not want it.
This became long as well :))) Anyway, thanks for your opinions guys. I really value your thoughts!! It's been a pleasure to have my views challenged by you ;))
There's a presumption being made here that I'm very uncomfortable with, namely, that women are somehow more comfortable with homosexuality than men are, and that this is a matter of something natural to sexual difference. For example, sorry to pick on you Nicki and Peter, but you both drew attention to the fact that the people you were disagreeing with were (for the most part) the women. Why? To my mind, this is little more than a reflection of the fact that male homosexuality continues to be far more overtly stigmatized, which itself is a reflection of the fact that males tend to assume that their own sexual attitudes are "normal," i.e., universalizable.
Peter, I watched that video clip and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to find so compelling about it. The thought of rubbing sunscreen on the back of one of my male friends neither excites nor repulses me. I would ask you why anyone would find this disgusting, by the way, unless they were themselves a bit afraid of the possibility that they would enjoy something like this more than they would care to admit. But you're arguing in a way that can't be challenged; if a man agrees with your position then you take it as evidence of how natural such an attitude is, yet if he disagrees with you, then you accuse him of dishonesty.
This is not an issue about the difference between men and women.
Nice point, Kyle. I only wanted to add that, as I see it, straight men's attraction to the idea or images of women in sexual congress with one another is not tantamount to an "acceptance" of lesbianism. In fact, those men are not *really* considering homosexuality at all. Inasmuch as those men are imaginatively considering themselves as potential participants in the women's activities, or assuming that the women are doing what they are doing for the benefit of their (male) witness, the male voyeurs are still operating within their own paradigm of heterosexuality.
Men find those images attractive NOT because the ostensible lesbians might actually be sexually stimulating one another, but because those women (and what they're doing) is sexually stimulating to the man. And I would ventur to say that the reason some *straight* women also find the idea of lesbianism stimulating is NOT because they are actually considering it as a real possibility, but because (in our culture, anyway) it has been figured as another way to attract men. I used to see evidence of this all the time in my younger "clubbing" days-- women on the dance floor pawning all over each other, not as an expression of homosexuality but rather as a way to get the boys to notice, hence, as an expression of hyper-heterosexuality.
Of coure, the reverse is not true. Women don't view men's (homo)sexual activity with one another as potentially involving them, or as being done for the benefit of whatever woman is watching. THIS is why male homosexuality is more "stigmatized," as Kyle notes... because we don't have a ready-to-hand way of co-opting it back into the heterosexual norm.
[petya, is it time for a new discussion yet?]
Professors Grady and J:
All I've to add to your most recent comments is: YES and YES!!!!!
And also...I feel really jealous of your students who will get to learn from you.
Kyle drew the correct assumption, Doctor j also nailed the point I brought up - the perception is skewed towards the visual satisfaction of men. However I am puzzled on why it makes you feel uncomfortable. Things are what they are, if we want to be rational we can only make the best of them. In general display of homosexuality between individuals of the same sex as the observer is tolerated quite differently by men and women, this is a known fact (the video was in my opinion a fun way to state the obvious) I do not want to delve into a discussion why our culture turned out this way, this is not the main point. To me the fact of BB being male is of utmost importance. To put it another way: imagine two groups of people, one predominantly male, the other female. And both of these groups are asked to vote on two separate issues: taking down of a flagrant lesbian billboard, and a not less stimulating male equivalent. I am pretty sure that the gay billboard will be axed in both cases. Why? Because women tend to care less, and men will find the one aesthetically pleasing (although they might not openly proclaim it), and will find the other one DISGUSTING, and will make sure that their voice is heard. And even if there are some women that find the lesbian billboard in bad taste, for each of them there will be a number of men who will give a countering opinion. This is not limited to the Balkans - I did my significant share of driving around the US as a merchant, and I have not encountered a single billboard with a gay theme to it. Lesbians - now this is another story.
Peter Rabbitson:
To shift the direction of the discussion a little bit, but also to piggy-back on Leigh and Kyle's points: I think your hypothetical experiment illustrates a larger issue. Namely, it's not that women do not care or are less concerned/interested in sexuality but rather women often view and judge themselves through male eyes!
Peter: Couldn't agree more about this not being limited to the Balkans. Though I think Americans are somewhat less tolerant of openly homophobic remarks/actions, I'm not convinced that this is a sign of any deep, underlying conviction.
You identified exactly the attitude that I'm uncomfortable with, the one that says: "Things are what they are, if we want to be rational we can only make the best of them," and then shrugs its shoulders when bad things happen in accordance with the prevailing attitudes. Yes, things are as they are, but we have a responsibility to at least speak up about them when they offend our sense of decency. That's my discomfort.
I'm not sure what your hypothetical situation is supposed to show about Boiko ordering the billboard taken down. The issue is not why he did it, but why taking it down was a complete abuse of his power.
Petya: How is this a bad thing? Remember we are talking about the general folk - simple people need simplicity. Napster - BAD, Money - Good, Gay - BAD, Global warming - none of my business, and so on. Any large scale crusade on a -ism automatically involves the creation of a counter-ism. Eliminating the void itself so it doesn't fill again is nearly impossible for an established adult. The best (and I believe only) thing one can do is to spare his children of developing such a craving for black and white. Everything else is just wasting "productivity cycles", as the flock generally prevails.
Kyle: I applaud your integrity. Actually if you go back and look at my first post you will see that I specifically targeted Nicki's comment. The issue was that he specifically said I find reinforcing gay/lesbian behavior by showing kissing men/women couples not good. which to me immediately raised a red flag, and later he sort of confirmed my assumption. You on the other hand never mixed the physiological with the social, which admittedly is pretty hard to do. About the issue in general I completely disagree with the "we are responsible" school of thought, or to be more precise it is another set of more basic responsibilities that I believe are neglected in this day and age.
K-Gs: Alas the magnitude of these arguments warrants a more personal setting with food and drinks available. If the wind blows me over Bulgaria, I'd really like to take this further :)
Peter: Now that sounds like a great idea. Conversations like these are so hard to have in a format like this. Would love to hear more of what you have to say while having a rakia-drinking contest.
Generalizing ("people in bulgaria") is no good. When i first saw the AzisT poster i paid no attention whatsoever to it. But then, some days later it was all over the media that the mayor ordered that the poster be removed. This was just another media campaign good for both sides - the "puritan politician" and the "scandalous star". Most of the people around me never mentioned the whole case, except for sentence or two to point out that we've seen this media campaign before.
By not ignoring these media junk, people are paying tribute to these guys.
I do not have problem with any of the ads. And many other Bulgarians do not (including you). So let's not make PR/AD agencies too proud... we ain't buying.
I find both of these posters inappropriate (if not even outrageously so). I am all for freedom of expression but in the right places. I agree with Nicki on one thing - I do not want things being shoved in my face in such an intrusive manner. Wanna talk about human rights? Where is my right to be protected against permanent psychological damage caused by images like that? Sure, I am exaggerating; still I think there should be some norms when it comes to managing the public space. Our kids are already smoking and wearing inch long skirts at the age of twelve.
Oh yeah, and I don't think perceiving being gay as OK will turn any kid gay. As no naked woman picture will turn a gay kid back into straighthood. I'm talking about openly sexually provocative images on huge-ass posters.
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